Zoran Janković - If true leaders want to make new leaders better than themselves, they allow them to have the glory
Every leader smells different. In Zoran Janković, the never-confirmed prime minister of the Republic of Slovenia, the Mayor who is also one of the most recognisable symbols of modern Ljubljana, probably more powerful than Ljubljana Castle, Ljubljanica River or the Olimpija football club, and alongside Ivan Tavčar, probably one of the most famous mayors by far, the former President of Management Board and CEO of the Mercator retail chain, this special smell is so strong that it is hard to miss. The Mayor is a man with a strong personality. And it is this first impression that he himself attaches great importance to. Despite the grandeur of the municipal building, you quickly relax and feel at home with the Mayor. The Impressionist paintings, the timelessness of the Town Hall walls, the dark mahogany furniture, the photos of meetings with foreign statesmen and the Mayor's granddaughters and grandson.... At the same time, the simplicity and sincerity of Janković's presence. While he himself claims not to believe in fate, he does believe in the beauty of life. He says that what matters in life is not how many times you fall, but that you get back up once again. That victories should not make you feel euphoric, but always motivated to do more.
And when your journey ends – and it surely will, if nothing else due to the natural cycle of life – you must remember that all you have left are your relationships. We talk about how personal ambition is not enough for success, how beautiful life can be if you know how to live it, that fortune favours the brave, and that a mayor will always protect 'his people'. What makes him unbreakable in the Slovenian economic-political arena, despite the many spanners thrown in the works and the scandals? What helps him to keep going on? He says that, among other things, it is knowing the power of his team and being able to leave his victories to others. But that a leader, while he can always do better, is definitely born. The character must remain the same – with or without rewards, under the bridge or at the helm of the state. That is what makes you successful, that is what makes you strong.
I AM THE FIRST LEADER OF A COALITION GOVERNMENT IN THE COUNTRY WHO SAID HE WOULD ONLY TAKE OVER MERCATOR IF HE WAS GIVEN A FREE HAND
M: I find it interesting what you said about victories – that you should not be euphoric about them. Also, the book which I refer to in the introduction to my master's thesis, which is now in review, introduces a hypothesis: if you look at the amplitude of the emotions of the average individual and the top leader, the amplitude is much greater in average individuals – from euphoria to depression etc. I would like to ask you how you learned this. Are the words of the Slovenian poet and writer Ciril Zlobec that you do not celebrate your victories and do not give up when you are defeated ingrained in you?
ZJ: It's not about learning. You have most of it in you, but then you can really learn and improve to some extent. These victories of mine.... I am the first leader of a coalition government in this country who said he would only take over Mercator if he was given a free hand in the running of it. You must possess the skill and possibility to bring the people who are accountable to you together. I still have some of my Mercator colleagues in the municipality and I have been working with them for 20 years now. It is essential that every victory I gain is ultimately a victory of my colleagues. But if something goes wrong, it is always my fault and I take responsibility. We all make mistakes, it is important not to repeat them. You have to learn from them. I have been president of many federations, of the Olimpija Council, and the first European Handball Championship was held in Slovenia in 2004. It was the first medal in any team sport in Slovenia. It would not have happened without me. All of the preparations, from getting the championship, securing the money, the new hall, all of that was my work. But when the boys were having their photo taken with the coach, I didn't stand next to them. I let them know that this was their victory. If a leader wants to raise new leaders better than himself, he allows them to have the glory. I am talking, above all, about soft methods of leadership. In all these years, we have only got one person wrong at the City of Ljubljana. Why did you write to me and not to our Deputy Mayor, who is younger? Because I am the city's brand. A personal brand in myself. The only thing you could have done better is to have prepared better, Minka. And know me better. The next time you interview someone, take their CV and learn who you're talking to.
I SAY WHAT I KNOW, WHAT I FEEL THE AUDIENCE NEEDS – IF THEY START DOZING OFF, IF THEY START CHATTING, IT MEANS YOU ARE NO GOOD.
M: I'll make a note of it, but more than an interview about your life journey this is an interview about the general laws of winning in business and in life, if there are any, so I didn't really prepare that much directly about the path you've walked and your career milestones. We also talked about the concept of power. A manager or a leader or a politician has power in a certain way, but many times this administrative power is not the same as actual power. What does the concept of power mean to you, how would you say that power changes people or has changed you? What does it mean to you that someone can take power or has power – how would you describe that?
ZJ: It is about the power of knowledge and attitude, not a formal position. The power of success is in people believing in or following you. If a full house applauds you, you have been great, if you have an empty house, you have sucked. The same goes for anyone who dares to stand in front of people in a political role and make their case in public. I hold an open day for citizens on the first Tuesday of every month, and I have welcomed 32,000 people in 17 years so far. Anyone can come, we start at 2 in the afternoon and go until 9 in the evening, sometimes for 2 days. Some stay for 1 minute, others for 10 minutes, depending on what the problems are. I don't read any speeches, except at weddings. I speak about what I know, what I feel the audience needs. If they start dozing off, if they start chatting, you’re no good, you're not interesting. For example, when I was in Split, Croatia, for a roundtable, I got an ovation. And it ended with the Mayor of Split telling me to come to them to be the mayor, and the Dean of the School of Economics and Business in Ljubljana inviting me to become an occasional lecturer. Belgrade, Serbia, is also inviting me to be the mayor. I also lectured three or four times a year to economics students at Mercator. Two halls full, cameras, a thousand people. Take what is good about me, Minka, whereas what is bad about me, be better than me. I find it great if you are better than me. This means the country will flourish.
DON'T BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU
M: Would you say that the quality of a good leader is that he knows himself very well, but also that he is in a way realistic with himself, that you know what your colours are, good and bad?
ZJ: Absolutely. It’s important that everybody is also aware of their own faults, weaknesses. I'm very demanding of my colleagues. I find bluffing difficult. If you take on a commitment, it is important that you, as a leader, carry it out. I don't leave my office until my desk is clean. And I don't use a computer and I don't have one. You can write whatever you want. Nobody can take Mercator away from me in Maribor, and I have been out of Mercator for a long time, and nobody can take the pedestrian zone away from me. So, Minka, follow your goals. You are very ambitious, that’s my observation. You benefit from the feminine charms that you absolutely have. The only question is how persistent and hard-working you are.
M: I think I am both, but I need to see the meaning in what I do and I need to personally feel a mission in it.
ZJ: Your goal now is to get a master's degree.
M: A master's degree, yes, but I'd like to find a job to die for. As they say, if you don't have something in life to die for, you're not really living....
ZJ: There will be a master's degree, that's a fact. Later this year. What are you tempted to do after that, if you could choose?
M: If I could choose, I've been interested in the psychological factor of business since I was a little kid. The energy, the people, the focus. And that a leader is all what you said – the education you get is one thing, what you carry inside is another. I think that is the main factor.
ZJ: But you don't need a psychologist to do that, you carry that inside you. The university gives you a broader and deeper view, but you want to be a manager, that's how I see you. You will never be satisfied with anything else.
M: I feel that I need autonomy in my work.
ZJ: First, you have to learn to work together, to sit and listen. And decide to be better at it. I will be better than Janković. That should be your goal.
M: My vision has always been to provide psychological counselling to managers. A kind of business consulting, but less focused on numbers, more on soft factors.
ZJ: That goes together, but in consulting your young age will be a big problem. You're too young. You can't advise me. Working with people is the cornerstone. You must be prepared for every meeting. You have to know who is sitting opposite you. Whether you are going to nod to the president of the country or whether you are going to be ready. Looks are not enough, Minka. Successes are ‘food’, but then what about failures, defeats? If there are only successes in your life, you will burst somewhere. There must be failure. If you just feed your ego with your triumphs, suddenly you have no ambition anymore. What is success? One victory or the final championship? It is to be on your path and to fight the challenges that sometimes we don't overcome, but many times we do. There is no need to feed the ego. If you reach that final goal too quickly, you will remain unsatisfied in life. Ambition and goals need to escalate. Part of this journey is both – satisfaction and sadness.
M: When you reach your goal, you are empty. And if you don't have a vision, a mission....
ZJ: No, no, you need a new goal.
WE KNOW A BUNCH OF FAILED KINGS
M: You said that if we just feed our ego, we quickly end up without personal satisfaction. What do you think defines the maturity of a leader and how important is maturity as a leader?
ZJ: Shortly before you came, I had a board meeting with 32 people. They applauded me at the end, and they are all directors themselves. That's what you're asking me. You can sing or dance or do anything else. Whatever you decide, you get an answer. You can be ambitious, but if there are no results, you have to change something. Train more. Or change the field you're working in. I am extremely good at choosing my colleagues. It's important to find the right place for everyone, to motivate and protect them. The arguments convince me that this is the right way. If someone wants to achieve something with me, let them come, let them convince me. Someone may not like you, but still believes in and follows you. In the end, the results confirm this vision.
M: What do you think helps to ensure that you don't abuse your power?
ZJ: You use the word “power” too often, Minka. Power can actually be an empty word. If a football player comes along and says he's going to be stronger than Ronaldo or Messi. That is a no-go. I will say it again: power comes naturally. Power and respect come from results. You say, I am now going to write 12 books. If these 12 books are read, then they will be waiting for the 13th book. That's what you're asking me. Power is being built. A kingdom where a child inherits the throne. But we know a bunch of failed kings. If you are interested in power, look at Napoleon, who fell. With the first victories on the front, people followed and believed in him because they thought they would be victorious. And that afterwards they would get new estates, new castles, new money.... And they followed Napoleon for so long, and at the crucial moment he felt so strong that he cornered the Russians. Either they would win or die; nature helped them. That’s the point. You like power, but you have to have a measure of it, or else you are going to burst.
I WILL ALWAYS PROTECT MY PEOPLE: ON HOW YOU SHOULDN'T TAKE DETOURS IN LIFE – IN TIME YOU WON'T BE YOU ANYMORE
M: What would you say makes you grounded?
ZJ: The very things I am explaining to you. That I won't always be in the position I am today. Will you come to me when they replace me, Minka?
M: If you convince me with this interview, I think so. But how much do you think it matters that someone refuses to bend their own principles on their way to success, that they are not the ones who stop at nothing? Is that necessary – to trample on everything that stands in the way, including one's own ethical standards? To what extent have you ever felt in your career that you had to overlook something that was not okay for you, to leave behind someone you did not want?
ZJ: I've never done that. I was in that situation, but I sacrificed the office of Prime Minister rather than step over my own man. I could have done exactly what you are asking. This rotten compromise. Absolutely not. To sacrifice someone. At the 2011 elections, if I had replaced the director of Lekarna Ljubljana pharmacy institute, Marko Jaklič, I would have won two more seats in Parliament. But I did not do that, I did not replace him. Last year, I could have replaced the Director of the Community Health Centre Ljubljana and I would have had peace, but I did not. I protected and supported her. And everybody knows that. Especially my directors. That I will protect them to the end. When I know, when I believe that they are the right ones, others can say whatever they want.
M: And so it seems to me that perhaps this respect that you mentioned is being built. That you do not always use your levers, even if you could, if you do not see the point in using them. Or is it?
ZJ: First of all, people need to know that they are safe. The safety of life is the most important thing. Look at Gaza now. An example of personal security at risk. If someone beats you up in the municipality here, I don't know how you would get past it, you would prefer to look for work elsewhere.
M: This safety, I've seen, is one of the things you're working very hard on for Ljubljana, isn't it? I read about it in your book that you gave me when you first sent me home. Now we're doing it for the third time. But the third time is the charm, isn't it, Mayor?
ZJ: We have been officially declared the safest city in the world.
SUCCESS IS A COMBINATION OF HEART AND BRAIN: WHEN YOU SET YOUR OWN PRIORITIES, YOU CAN'T LIE TO YOURSELF
M: Potential can blossom when we feel safe. But what would you say about the extent to which you perceive an above-average sense of control over your life, time and energy, and how important a value is autonomy for you? To what extent do you act out of passion, going where you are drawn?
ZJ: Success is a combination of the heart and the brain. I always leave my most important decisions to my intuition, and passion is very important in life. Passion gives you the pleasure of kicking the ball, of engaging in conversations, the pleasure of discovering something new. Today I enjoyed being with my directors. So absolutely, I work mostly out of passion.
M: Pleasure is a sign that we are on the right track. Do you agree? And how do you allocate your time and energy as mayor? Everyone wakes up with a limited amount of energy. How do you prioritise how to use it? Based on the passion you feel for things, or something else?
ZJ: I do everything that is intended for the day. Look, my desk is clean! It's not that I prioritise at all. I know what I have to do. Some things you just have to do in advance.
M: Intuition, you said, helps you balance your brain and your heart. How does a certain thing even enter your schedule – what do you judge it by?
ZJ: How did you come to me? I didn't know you. Tomorrow, others will come. If someone writes something to me and I feel I can help them, then I do it. You come, I tell you, we're done. Priorities – the worst is when you set them yourself. Then you can’t lie to yourself that someone has forced you to do something, to give your time to something.
M: What do you think is behind lasting and functional relationships? Who do you trust – on what basis and why? And how do you cut off those who disappoint you? How do you cope with betrayal, if you have ever experienced it? What if you are let down, what do you do?
ZJ: Alenka Bratušek, who I made Prime Minister – we haven't spoken for 10 years. When I saw her, I crossed the road. She made a different choice, that's her right, but when we started communicating last year, she told me that she realised she had made a mistake. Despite that, I have not said a single bad word about her in 10 years. We simply did not get along. Disappointment – you have to be able to balance it. For instance, a man takes a picture of you naked and then posts it online when you leave him. What are you going to do? When I accept something, I stand by it – I got an award from Putin and after the war in Ukraine started, some people demanded that I give it back, but I didn't, because I got it for friendship. We were friends at that time and tomorrow we will be friends again with Moscow. Black and white is not bad, the problem is that you say something once and then deny it later. You always have to remember the good things, not destroy everything and remember only the bad.
M: But this reflects your own insecurity and weakness. That you are fouling your own nest.
ZJ: Absolutely. The weakness that was hidden before is revealed in such moments. Some people get drunk, others do drugs. A man may even become a murderer because his girlfriend has left him. Others simply find another one.
M: You say I mention the concept of power too much. But often power gives a person the possibility to show who he is. Position, status, money – like wine, it brings out the truth that was concealed before, doesn't it? You also mentioned earlier that sometimes a leader has to, I think you used the term, suffer.
ZJ: There is always a moment when you are disappointed. Disappointed that you believe somebody, that you trust them.
M: When someone disappoints me, I'm angry with myself, why I didn't foresee it, see the person for who they are.
ZJ: Don't be angry with yourself if you don't do everything perfectly. Time always shows the true picture because relationships last.
M: That’s true, yes, the best test of a relationship is probably time.
ZJ: Always!
M: It's a very popular thesis that in order to become a top-level success, you must make many sacrifices. Would you say that in your career you have made some sacrifices that have exceeded your expectations?
ZJ: I haven't made any sacrifices. My family suffered because of politics, especially my children, but they also wanted what I wanted. They wanted my success and they were willing to pay the price. They cheered me on at the elections. There we go again – life is not all about the upside.
PEOPLE WITHOUT PAIN ARE NOT PEOPLE
M: People who don't have any wounds are not interesting, are they? I like icy women full of pain. I don't know why I find people who carry pain immensely attractive.
ZJ: People without pain are not people. Look at the homeless man. He became homeless because he couldn't stand the pain.
M: Withdrawal is the path to psychopathology. He withdrew, didn't he? When you stop exposing yourself to what's bothering you, and refuse to cope with the problem. Withdrawing from life is the worst way. We think of escape as a comfort zone, but in fact it is.... How did you cope with the envy of people, of friends? Or maybe you've never even experienced it....
ZJ: Are you envious because I am the Mayor?
M: No, because if you are good, it doesn't stop me from being good. I've always liked hanging out with people who are better than me at something. Learning from them. You said I have beauty. You have power. Your power does not repel me, but I respect it. It gives me hope that there is somewhere to move in life – for myself and those around me. It does not threaten me.
ZJ: Even the other way around. It gives you the motivation to become even better. I am basically never envious. Of course there is envy, but it doesn't matter to me. Envious is someone who never admits guilt, it's always someone else’s, or something else's, fault.
FORTUNE FAVOURS THE BRAVE
M: What would you say about the argument that the wheel of fortune is always turning and that the fluctuation within the percentage of the most successful is very high?
ZJ: Fortune favours the brave, but I don't count on luck. The wheel of life puts everyone in their place sooner or later. The old saying goes: Birds of a feather flock together. For better or worse.
M: Hum, interesting. Personally, I believe in fate. First of all, that fortune favours the brave, as well as the intelligent ones, people with a clear focus and vision, those with determination, stubbornness and perseverance. On the other hand, I also believe in fate in the way that the things that are meant for you in life quite find you. If you make a mistake – let's say you told me the first time that I wasn't ready enough and to come again – you can still transform your destiny. You can correct mistakes.
ZJ: I don’t believe in fate. You yourself wrote 20 requests, you got my answer. What does fate have to do with this? I didn't know what you looked like, you wrote that you needed my help to study, it seemed nicely structured, so I said if I can help this girl in any way, I will help her.
M: If you don't believe in fate, what do you believe in? Everyone has to believe in something. In god, in communism, in a partner as god.... What do you believe in, Mayor?
ZJ: I believe in the beauty of life. I come from great poverty. In Serbia, where I grew up, the first 12 years were very hard, so they are still deeply rooted in my heart. So what were we like as children? Partisans.
M: Hum. What drove you? What has been the main driver in your heart?
ZJ: It is being built. At that time... my first job was... I took out a loan to get married, as much as I could. In my third year of university, I had my own house without any help from my parents, working five jobs at once. Then the most important thing was to earn enough to support my family. My wife was a student. After 4 years, I wanted to become a director. Mind you – the director of Mercator. Because of the CEO in the times of Yugoslavia, who, when I was a bit older than you, was a legend among economists. He was the only one who kept Mercator in the privatisation phase, made sure that it did not fall apart. Then these objectives are being built on. When I was persuaded to run in the national elections – I went there to win. And 26 people who mean a lot to me, with Milan Kučan at the head, came to the Town Hall and told me that I was the only chance for change. And I beat Janez Janša. Nobody believed it would be like that. In 7 weeks, we had created a party, went to the elections and won. I didn't know real politics, I didn't know how elections were run behind the scenes. You win, but you don't form a government. So I went to parliament for 3 months. And realised that parliament is a waste of time. Then back to the elections and back to the municipality. My team here has been with me for decades. Some from Mercator..., Tanja has been with me for 20 years. That’s more than your age.
MY ADVICE IS THE GOLOVEC HILL, WHERE I WALK AND TALK TO MYSELF
M: It’s not. What would you say then about the fact that the further you go, the more risk there is, and that it gets harder to seek advice, that there are some things you can only talk to yourself about?
ZJ: My advice is: Golovec. I live near Golovec Hill, I go for a walk and hold a meeting with myself. I talk to myself. Some people meditate; we are all very different people.
M: Would you say that a good leader has to be wild to a certain extent and that he has to be very genuine, very authentic?
ZJ: That wildness, that's passion. That's what it feels like to enjoy something.
M: To what extent would you say that the self-confidence and clarity of the vision of a leader is crucial for success in an economic-political environment?
ZJ: It's good to be self-confident. If you want to be ambitious, you must be self-confident. Otherwise, your ambitions are empty, without any foundations. Education, hard work, being the most demanding of yourself – that goes hand in hand with self-confidence. You need to know what you lack so that you can add value to yourself.
M: You survived, we made it to the end.
ZJ: It was really nice. Life is so beautiful, isn't it, Minka?
M: Yes, if you know how to live it, it is.
Photo source: City of Ljubljana
The interview was conducted as part of the master's thesis Psychological laws of outstanding success in the Slovenian economic-political space. It will be published in full in the publication The dark and bright sides of 'ruling the world': insights of Slovenian leaders into the psychological factors of breaking through and staying on top, scheduled to be released for December 2024.